Co-worker woes

[Testy Tube]

Wow! What a result!!
Where is he going? Out of the lab only or out of science altogether? How did he take it?
(pardon my voyeurism, but I've never been in a lab where someone was fired. Has anyone else?)

[neurograd]

I have no idea if he's leaving science altogether. Basically he's supposed to leave in a few weeks. I really think it will be much better for the lab with him gone. Everyone else in our lab is great, productive, and a pleasure to work with.

[hedge]

This sort of thing must happen quite a bit. It would be really interesting to know some stats...but I suppose a lot of things like this get covered up to protect reputations.

It's my impression that postdocs, at least in some countries, aren't really protected by employment law. Or at least such laws are ignored. Postdocs can be made to work 70 hour weeks, encouraged not to take full holiday entitlement, are often not eligible for benefits that say a technician would receive automatically. I wonder if they could unionise, and whether collective bargaining could help their lot?

Sorry to be ignorant if such support networks are already in place. I'd like to know more...

[neurograd]

I think some of those things depend on which university or other research institution you're at, and beyond that which lab you're in. I don't know if unionizing would help since everyone has different bosses, was brought in under different grants and different expectations, etc.

Also the "bad apples" end up being passed around from lab to lab because the current PI just wants to get rid of the person, but knows that writing a terrible (but honest) recommendation may be more trouble than it's worth. So they write a generically supportive letter (hard worker, etc), the person puts on a good show for a new lab, and the cycle begins again.

I think another problem is the different standards that are required for a PhD in different places, especially in certain countries. In some places you can get a PhD basically by being a glorified tech -- you didn't do any of the experimental design and may not even fully understand the experiment, but you can run a Western blot like no one's business. But then you come to a lab where the expectation is more than that, and you're in over your head. Our lab, just in the few years I've been here, has already had a handful of postdocs who were far less capable than the grad students. This just sets up a breeding ground for resentment and failure on all fronts.

[Cat person]

It must be awful for the unequipped (through no fault of his/her own) postdoc who ends up in a high-power lab and had no idea how to be independent because he/she wasn't trained right. I guess some of these people will learn fast on their feet and some won't make it. But this probably happens in lots of different careers not just science. Sure the others may resent this person but it may actually not be their fault entirely.

[neurograd]

I agree that it puts the postdoc in a bad position, and that it's not always their fault. I should mention that in my lab's case these people were not on their first postdoc, and some were in even higher positions. I'd also be very sympathetic if postdocs in this situation were honest and said hey, "In my grad school/lab they didn't teach us all of this stuff, so it's going to take me a little while to get used to it and catch up." But more often than not they're not truthful with themselves and the rest of the lab, and it's a slippery slope from there.

[tideliar]

...I'd also be very sympathetic if postdocs in this situation were honest and said hey, "In my grad school/lab they didn't teach us all of this stuff, so it's going to take me a little while to get used to it and catch up." But more often than not they're not truthful with themselves and the rest of the lab, and it's a slippery slope from there.

I think NG has hit the nail on the head with this. You really shouldn't be graduated if you don't have at least some independance. And furthermore, you should know about being independant and strive to become so during your training. I think that the majority of postdocs need a bit of time to settle in a new lab, find their feet and then grow. But after 6 months or so you should really be up and running. Yes, it is a big transition from Graduate School to postdoc research, and no one expects you to be a fully "functional" PI, however there are minimum standards that have to be met. That's one of the points in taking on the PhD.

[Octavia]

I agree with this. So how to enforce it? Make one's viva committee analyse the candidate's independence...but how? Ask the PhD supervisor's opinion? Sussing it out via interviewing the candidate and asking her hypothetical questions? It ain't easy...

[neurograd]

One problem is that the postdoc, their grad institution, and their grad advisor all have a vested interest in making the postdoc look good. The institution accepted this person into a graduate program basically gambling that they would be able to become a successful, independent scientist. (Defining successful solely as knowing how to form and test a hypothesis, analyze data, draw conclusions, and represent your work to the larger scientific community).

The hard truth, though, is that not everyone who enters graduate school is capable of this. Some students are self-aware enough to recognize this and get out after a year or two, but some stay on much longer, to the point where if they don't graduate they really have thrown away a sizable chunk of their life. They may not truly deserve a PhD, but here's where the vested interest of the advisor and institution come in. The advisor, of course, doesn't want to be known for having a student fail. The institution wants to keep its attrition rate low, so it does everything it can to help the student finish and graduate. In this situation it's hard for a potential postdoc advisor to know what they may be getting into by taking such a person on as a postdoc, since all the available information on the potential postdoc has an element of bias in it.

[Wondergrad]

Wheee, all this stuff ahead of me to look forward to!

It sounds like the system needs work but the way it was explained to me by the career counsel was that it was like an apprenticeship and not formalised like Uni. Guilds look after their own, the normal rules don't apply. Maybe this isn't so bad? I mean how many failures/bad apples are we really talking about here? I'm guessing this is rare? As long as the system eventually weeds 'em out maybe it doesn't matter which level they make it to before Game Over. Maybe it's good practice for all the good apples to have to deal with losers in the lab! Then they know what to look for when they are the boss!

[emmanc]

I didn't want to start a new forum and given that this is related to my (odd, very odd) co-workers, I thought I would re-awaken this one and share.

Day started bad with me opening my emails and coming to the conclusion that I am surrounded with a Conferacy of Dunces, to steal a book title. Not all of them of course, but enough, my goodness me. People talking without engaging brain, writing emails without the aforementioned engaged brain and replying sideways to a direct question : how much do 6 boxes cost (they sent me the price and shipping for only 1 box....and it took them a week) sigh.

Then to make the morning go with a real bang, two of my male co-workers literally had a screaming match (from the noise, I think there may have been some "playground style" pushing and shoving going on, but wouldn't swear on it) in the office next time mine (needless to say it spilled out into the corridor). Many nasty things were said, many accusations that may or may not be true. Quite funny from one aspect: everyone else went and hid in their offices with the door shut..I hid around the corner of my big filing cabinet so that I wouldn't catch anyones eye!

They calmed down after one of them stomped off in a huff and the other went off to the administration....discretion is the better part of valour, perhaps, but I think both of them had forgotten that little idiom..

All in all a horrid day at Camp Emma

[Daughter of Darwin]

Poor Emma - Don't you just love male posturing?

What were they fighting about? 'Accusations' - anything juicy such as fraud, or just the bog-standard 'you're pissing on my (intellectual) territory' stuff?

I'm terrible, though. Whever people fight, instead of hiding away, I'm the one with ear pressed on the drinking glass against the closed door!

[emmanc]

it was about many things, both - you're a crap scientist, well, you're a crap project leader, then the real nasty stuff started with accusation of not doing their hours, taking too many non official vacation days, bad management. So Fraud was an aspect, but not monetary fraud, more a question of accusations of work hours...very very nasty - and I didn't need a glass, the walls are so thin we could all hear then only too easily - hence everyone scuttling off into their offices and hiding...no one wanted to be dragged into it because there would have been no honorable end.

[The Prof]

This is typical from what I've seen of lab squabbling. One grievance will fan out to encompass all perceived slights whether real or imaginary. It may have seemed uncomfortable at the time but I suspect that clearing the air may have done a good thing for the lab atmosphere ultimately. Emma is away - on her return we will hopefully hear whether this is the case...

I have also noticed that 'not working sufficient hours' is the number one grievance that labmates hold against one another. They all seem to keep subconscious track and score - there is almost a virtuous feeling being first in or last out (or preferably both at once!). When in reality this is all utter tosh - I see little correlation between long hours and productivity (as measured in manuscripts, getting a job, whatever). But timekeeping -- it's a real source of contention! Maybe it's the easiest measurable variable.

[Mad Dan Eccles]

When in reality this is all utter tosh - I see little correlation between long hours and productivity (as measured in manuscripts, getting a job, whatever).

That is interesting. I'd like to see data on this very matter.