What does "fact" mean to you? In your lab?

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Postby The Prof on Sat Jan 20, 2007 1:19 pm

he's saying, well, you've set up a lab, with machines and graphing tools and models and politics to produce this kind of fact, and this kind of fact is exactly what you'll get.


To be fair t the good Mr Latour, Amy, for certain aspects of science this is true. Signal transduction springs to mind. Cells communicate as a result of thousands of inputs coming in from the environment, all criss-crossing and cross-talking and short-circuiting and going multiple ways at once - the individual steps along the way could be influenced by one tiny little environmental variable such as your lab being at 21.5 degrees instead of 21.6 while you feeding your cells in the hood. Lots of labs get conflicting signal results about specific outcomes along the cascade - different factulas with a lower-case 'f', if you will. But the beauty of the robust redundancy of intracellular communication is that on average, if the conditions are not far from the average, the net result downstream - say whether a gene gets turned on or off - will probably turn out to be discoverable in a majority of labs, and reproducible. Many of those alternative outcomes cancel out, or don't reach the right threshold, or what have you. And then this could become a Factula.
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Postby amy c. on Sun Jan 21, 2007 8:33 pm

Prof, I think -- although I'm not quite sure -- that Latour would say you're positing an underlying, discoverable, independent reality that he won't go with. Below is what I think is the key paragraph from the book (here he's at the Salk Institute, watching people work out the structure of a peptide hormone). My reaction to it follows. Keep in mind that Latour was writing 30 years ago, and I don't know how the debate's gone since:

"We have attempted to avoid using terms which would change the nature of the issues under discussion. Thus, in emphasising the process whereby substances are constructed, we have tried to avoid descriptions of the bioassays which take as unproblematic relationships between signs and things signified. Despite the fact that our scientists held the belief that the inscriptions could be representations or indicators of some entity with an independent existence 'out there,' we have argued that such entities were constituted solely through the use of these inscriptions. It is not simply that differences between curves indicate the presence of a substance; rather the substance is identical with perceived differences between curves."

I think that last point is astute and well-put. Yes, afaics, the concept of the substance -- which is in practice what will be used in the lab & related papers -- can only be a product of the terms set up in the inscriptional device. But it seems to me possible that the concept really does indicate or represent something real. Maybe something has genuinely been caught between those curves. Whether or not the model is very good, whether or not we understand what we're looking at, that's another story. But maybe the scientist tripped over something real under the carpet. If there is something real, then it seems to me one must admit the possibility that the concept is a good representation of a real thing, whether or not we understand what we're naming and modeling. And it sounds to me, in this part above, that Latour's saying no, it can't be. So I don't see how this is not essentialy reality-denying. Maybe I misunderstand, though.

It would've been interesting to see L&W in the synthetic lab. If the lab's not making Glu-His-Pro, then what's it making, and how does he know?


I've taken my question to a philosophy prof here who's big on Latour and will report the wisdom as I receive it.

How does any of this matter in practice? Well, I think it goes back to the ID thread from last summer. (Last spring?) If students & the general public are persuaded that 'facts' are merely elaborate, socially determined constructions with no firm underlying reality, there's no immediately apparent reason to take one more seriously than another. ID, evolution, well it's all just sociology, and if you want to push one harder than the other, you must have some untoward agenda.

I am guessing the meat of the argument lies in "no immediately apparent reason to take one more seriously than the other" -- I am guessing that there are very good reasons that are simply not well articulated in public, because they're covered over by arguments about what's real. In practice, there's no way to know whether or not an underlying reality exists. And yet there are still ways of differentiating good fact-construction from bad. Put that way it sounds uncomfortably like a branch of aesthetics.

Here is part of Salk's foreword to the book, btw:

"Even if we do not agree with the details of this book, or if we find it slightly uncomfortable and even painful in places, the present work seems to me to be a step in the right direction toward dissipating the mystery that is believed to surround our activity. I feel certain that in the future many institutes and laboratories may well include a kind of in-house philosopher or sociologist. For myself, it was interesting to have Bruno Latour in our institute, which allowed him to carry out the first investigation of this kind of which I am aware and, most interestingly, to have observed the way in which he, and his approach, was transformed by the experience. It would be very useful for this critique itself to be criticized. This would both help the authors (and other scholars with similar interests and background) to assist scientists to understand themselves through the mirror provided, and help a wider public understand the scientific pursuit from a new and rather refreshing point of view."

Thanks to all, by the way, for your willingness to read these posts. I'm aware they're long as hell & keep looking for ways to shorten them.
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Postby John from Florida on Sun Jan 21, 2007 9:12 pm

Hey Amy, interesting stuff. Am I being dumb, or is Latour saying that the hormone that lab was studying actually doesn't exist? I'm sorry, but this is just silly. Might as well say that Latour himself doesn't exist, if scientists measure him walking across the room. Maybe he actually would agree with this, though!

Is it only microscopic stuff he has a problem with, or big macro facts such as: "there is an elephant standing in the room"?

Also interesting is Salk's reaction - a sociologist-in-residence for every institute. It's a bit of a crazy concept...
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Postby emmanc on Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:13 am

Hello everyone, I'm back!

I think the idea of having a sociologist in every lab is great. Just knowing that someone was observing you would mean that a lot of underhand, dirty dealings would not get done. Not of course that I do any dirty, underhand deeds that need observing.

It would help with group interactions immensely, especially if they had a participatory role. This was the opposite of Latours' experience and indeed exactly what he didn't want to happen. But by understanding how everyone interacted in a lab environment and seeing it as a scientific study would make harmony a lot easier I think.
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Postby Mad Dan Eccles on Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:54 am

Hello emma! Nice to see you.

The problem, if I'm following this aright and I'm not at all convinced I am, is that the sociologist would only actually exist as long as we didn't do an experiment to prove that they did.

A heisensociologist, in fact.

Maybe the sociologist only exists if we don't observe it. A kind of reverse Schrödinger sociologist. Put the sociologist in a box with a cat and some cyanide and see who dies first, maybe? That's the kind of animal experimentation I like.

Oh god, it's hot. I need more beer.
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Postby Octavia on Mon Jan 22, 2007 2:45 pm

Hey Emma, we missed you, despite still harbouring simmering feelings of resentment for your ten gazillion week holiday break! Welcome back.

Dan, I spit juice all over my keyboard at your post. Did you see that Jenny has enshrined it in the Quotes thread?

Personally I think an in-house sociologist would be a blinkin nightmare. We already have a problem with the health and safety guy - could you imagine the possible violations one could accrue with one of these humanities guys? They could accuse our notebooks of not being post-human enough.
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Postby emmanc on Tue Jan 23, 2007 9:04 am

Oh it wasn't just vacation, I did 4 weeks of experiments/analyses whilst I was in France as well.

But back to the subject of "Fact". My new Msc student arrived the other day and she is having a bit of a hard time discovering that all that she was taught in class was not the "FACT" she thought it was. I must have heard at least 10 times between yesterday and today "but in class they told us this or that". She was moaning that nowhere is there the "ONE" paper that tells her how it is and how it's always going to be and that all the papers contradict each other.

I told her welcome to cutting edge Ecology Research.

Probably thinks I am a sarcastic old nut-bag, perhaps the nearest she will get to FACT hahahahaha
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Postby hedge on Tue Jan 23, 2007 9:23 am

Ah sweet innocence of Youth...well, your student will either learn, or she won't be able to handle the truth of our various untruths. It's interesting, really, I hadn't thought about it before, but being a scientist really does lead to a weird blend of being a stickler for accuracy while at the same time walking this line of having no idea what is really accurate at all. You need to have a sort of zen-like acceptance of intellectual chaos. Some might call that being nuts, I suppose!
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Postby Dbl Helicks on Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:57 pm

But maybe the scientist tripped over something real under the carpet.


This is giving Latour too much credit. It is just sheer bloodymindedness to state that it's impossible to measure things - or as Dan implies, that things you measure can't exist. If you are a woman and someone is measuring your hormones or temperature, you can tell if an egg is popping out - and then you can introduce a camera and see the egg. It's absolutely ludicrous to claim this egg doesn't exist because you looked for to with a hormone test! (I assume Latour isn't stupid enough to deny camera evidence - the 'elephant' someone else posited.) Can someone explain Latour to me if I've missed something??
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Postby Mad Dan Eccles on Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:24 am

Dbl Helicks wrote: Can someone explain Latour to me if I've missed something??


Yeah. He's a social scientist - a career without reason or benefit. So he has to invent controversy to justify himself.

New hypothesis: Latour does not exist.

Disprove *that*. . . to me.
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Postby Dbl Helicks on Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:34 am

I don't know much about sociologists but surely they must have some merits. Does anyone know of any examples of sociologists making valuable contributions to science/science culture?
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Postby emmanc on Thu Jan 25, 2007 8:30 am

Oh I think there must loads in the environmental literature. Sociologists have really helped revolutionise the perception of the importance of taking into account how native peoples interact and value their environment. Not to mention the socio-economists, so beloved of the EU, who do help transform our theories into applicable actions.
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Postby The Prof on Thu Jan 25, 2007 8:53 am

Just for argument's sake, does anyone know of any concrete examples where sociologists have facilitated the understanding of science itself? Or scientists? It sounds as if Latour were trying to understand scientists in their natural habitat but my feeling is, from the descriptions here (not having read the book) he rather missed the point. But there must be some who tried and succeeded? That might make an interesting read.
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Postby Reg_200 on Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:30 pm

Hi Emma and welcome back!

Well, it's very common here to sneer at Sociology as a discipline - don't know anyone in the graduate school over there but we scientists find it hard to fathom. I think history of science is interesting and useful...but what do sociologists bring to the table?

(Any of you sociologists lurking, your cue to come on in and defend yourself!)
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Postby Beatrice on Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:20 pm

Well, there's this chap called Robert Merton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_K._Merton), recently deceased, who is supposed to have done a lot of seminal work studying scientists and what they do. I haven't read his book but I once read an article about his ideas and it seemed interesting. This was a few years ago so I'm not quite sure what struck me as sound.
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